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TOPIC: Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate?

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #151

Indeed, at least for New York, Notary Public's, and I venture to say that all Notary Publics, are charged with a duty to notarize documents and take affirmations and oaths, among other duties. For your trips to the notary you want to have:

1) Satisfactory evidence or a superior form of evidence such as something that is "self-authenticating"

2) Original and Complete documents

3) Be sure your docs contain the appropriate Notarial Language clearly indicating the desired Notarial Act

4) Have handy on a note or in your mind, the Notary Public laws (codes) for the State the Notary is authorized in. Know what their manual says regarding failure or refusal to officiate and the type of evidence needed for them to officiate.

5) Know the difference between a verified statement and a frivolous statement. If you are being enticed to slavery by a notary stating you need a driver's license kindly inform them that you do not consent to enticement to slavery or whatever else the situation calls for. If you come with all the proper elements needed and the notary is refusing you may be dealing with a notary who is biased and prejudiced and who is depriving you of rights without cause.
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: changing of my mind - not wanting to have this information still available publicy

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #152


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Wouldn't two or three witnesses better suit the case for private documents?
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #153

Please note that content is no longer available and has been removed by the originator - if you got to read it, cool. If not, message me privately and I'd be happy to share my experience with this topic.
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: same as other

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #156


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I was referring to them witnessing attestation, affirmation, etc.

I recently took the notary public class just for the education on it and that's what they told us: If we didn't feel comfortable with the I.D., we didn't know them personally, and they don't have a credible witness, don't do it. Of course we just skimmed through the book and its only an 8 hour class so I don't have much faith that notaries know the laws concerning their role. The biggest complaint by the instructor (who was also the head of the county recorders office) was that not enough notaries properly check I.D. and very few of them actually administer oaths/affirmations when required. So they're cracking down on them in my state.

Other than that I've only used notaries for public documents, so far most of my remedy has come from the public. Of course I haven't had to enter any of my private documents (the few that I have)into the public so it sounds like you may be more experienced in that area than I am.
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #169


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"credible witness" only applies in certain states (ie: florida). When I was a notary in NY you could not do that, laws change often so it's possible that that could be the case there now but I doubt it.

In Fl unlike NY a notary DOES have the legal right to refused to officiate for any reason or no reason at all.

I've done the 'Credible Witness' notarization many times in FL, it's a painful process that most notaries are unfamiliar with and would choose not to do because it has so many moving parts.
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #170


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All Rights Reserved - Yes you can force a NY notary to do his job, (in some states you cannot force a notary to do his job) however you can't force him to believe the documents that you provided are real, authentic, proper or legal. The notary is under no obligation to investigate or authenticate documents presented as ID beyond what would be considered reasonable.

In NY you don't need state ID to get something notarized but that is what notaries are accustom to seeing and probably could identify a fake with easy, however if someone arrives with a real Virginia license that the notary is unfamiliar with what is their obligation? If they don't know how to authenticate it, they would NOT be obligated to accept it even though it is valid, real, and legal.

I often had a hard time with accepting US Passports alone as ID because I didn't know how to authenticate them.

Unlike NY, in FL the state tells notaries what is acceptable ID, you can't accept any other documents outside of the list.

The best thing for everyone that has no acceptable ID is to personally get to know a notary, in many states (like NY) that's all the notary needs to be "comfortable" to legally carry out his duty.
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Last Edit: 4 years 3 months ago by Armis.

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #179

Hi Armis,

Thanks for your sharing on this. I did read the manual for New York Notary Public License Law and it is considered a misdemeanor if a notary fails to officiate. And they are not directed to ask for driver's licenses, per the manual. Requiring a driver's license of me for her to officiate and depriving me of a right if I don't have one is unlawful.
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: same

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #180

Please note that content is no longer available and has been removed by the originator - if you got to read it, cool. If not, message me privately and I'd be happy to share my experience with this topic.
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: same

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #184


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All Rights Reserved wrote:
In my experience and research comfortable or uncomfortable does not appear in the manual either. What they need, per the manual, and other publications official and otherwise, is 'satisfactory' evidence. If they are ignorant of what that is, they are still responsible for actions taken as a result of that erroneous belief. Ignorance is no excuse, not for me, you or this notary. It's pretty cut and dry in my view, and so far she's not been able to produce any proof of any her reasons, statements. Hope that clarifies where I am coming from. I used to be a notary myself also and the manual didn't say it back then either ;)

What is your take on her lack of rebutting the affidavits served on her? This per the terms of the accompanying notices and customary to commerce, is her acceptance of the facts and truth stated in the affidavits. Which she has not rebutted.

I offered an example of someone providing a perfectly valid out-of-state driver's licence to a notary for proof of identity. If the notary is unfamiliar with the license her ignorance is a valid excuse to refuse to notarize the document because she is not comfortable to determine that the ID is in fact valid.

Given that you was a notary you probably came across a situation that gave you pause. In some states (ie Florida) the notary is encouraged to look over the documents, whereas in NY they are discouraged from doing that. But in all states if a notary, in good faith, feel that the transaction is illegal no judge in his right mind will rule against the notary.

On a totally different level, every time someone makes a judgment call they do it based on 'information and belief', the 'belief' side of that is determined by one's comfort level. You are far less likely to believe something you feel uncomfortable with than something (or someone) you are comfortable with. Scams rarely find their victim in those who are uncomfortable, they find their victims in those who are comfortable in believing the incorrect information.



as for:
What is your take on her lack of rebutting the affidavits served on her? This per the terms of the accompanying notices and customary to commerce, is her acceptance of the facts and truth stated in the affidavits. Which she has not rebutted.

She clearly doesn't believe you have the power or authority to carry your efforts to the point of forcing her to do what you want.

The bottom line is what the enforcers believe, if you can convince a deputy to arrest her, if you could convince a Sheriff to take her property, if you could convince all involved that what you are doing is right then she will likely do as you want -- but none of that is probable.

Proper protocol for your cause of action is to file a grievance with the Department of State, if you did that what was their finding, and or decision?

Given how comprehensive your OP is my guess is that you didn't make the official complaint, if not why not?
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #185

I sense a blurring of lines...I reference that notary public license law but I am not standing on that. There are several pieces to this.

The Notary officiated twice. On a third time the Notary failed to officiate without providing verifiable lawful cause for the failure. This is a breach of contract.

Second, the Notary is public servant and has a fiduciary duty to officiate provided they are shown what they require, which is at least "satisfactory evidence". In this case the Notary was provided with a superior form and forms of evidence.
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: same

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #186

Regarding your department of state question:

The principal is the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State is responsible for his agents' offenses, trespasses, unlawful conduct etc.

They have both not delivered to me,a proper rebuttal. They have created a default.


(Please note that much of the content on this topic is no longer available and has been removed by the originator - if you got to read it, cool. If not, message me and I'd be happy to share my experience with you privately regarding this topic.)
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: same

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #188


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The fact that she officiated for you twice before should tell you that she isn't a hardcore stickler.

You are refusing to recognize the fundamentals of what I told you:

1) everything is about 'information and belief' apparently even though she might have had doubts about your ID for the 1st or 2nd jobs, she did it anyway trusting more than proving.

Apparently, there was something about the third situation that triggered a red flag, and given your overblown response she is probably fearing the first two transactions.


and 2) the ID you provided may be authentic and true, but she doesn't know that. You need her to believe that they are authentic, true, and valid. If she is unconvinced of that then the proper protocol is to see a different notary and or report her via DOS complaint of notary section. Sending anything to the SOS will not necessarily find it's way to the investigator's office, it more likely will find itself on a DOS lawyer's desk who will likely file it in the 'frivolous, do not respond' draw.

None of the ID you produced was proven authentic. So it was her prerogative to accept or reject it. In Florida, none of your produced ID would have been acceptable (but we have the 'credible witness' to fall back on).

When she told you that she was 'uncomfortable' that was, in no uncertain terms, speak for "I don't believe you" or "I no longer trust you." It isn't necessary for "comfortable" to be written in the law, what is there is sufficient to know that she must believe what she is saying she believes when she signs her name to anything as a notary.

Essentially you are demanding that she believe what you provided is true and valid, but she doesn't believe it, even if you prove to any judge with authority that she recognizes and that the state has empowered, that the ID you produced is true, authentic, and valid her actions were in good faith.



For the third time I am submitting to you the matter of the valid out-of-state drivers licence presented to a notary that is unfamiliar with it and unable to comfortably authenticate it, he is under no obligation to accept it. In this case it doesn't matter that the ID supplied was real, and valid, what mattered was that she believed it was real.

If you produced a real NYS driver's license that she believed was fake it would make sense for you to demand to know why she is refusing to accept the ID, because she is reasonably expected to know what a valid NYS driver's license should look like.

As I mentioned earlier, when people submitted US Passports as ID to me I always experienced trepidation because I feared they could be fake and I would be too ignorant to know it. I've seen US Passports change very many times, more than NYS driver's licenses. So even though it was legally sufficient proof if it was authentic, it is NOT sufficient proof if it is not authentic. If I don't believe it is valid, and I'm operating in good faith, my refusal to notarize the document would be acceptable.
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Last Edit: 4 years 3 months ago by Armis.

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #189

pursuant to federal rules of evidence and when you look at rules of evidence in general, whether various court websites, law dictionaries etc. the type of evidence presented to the notary is admissible as evidence and being this is a private contract it is not under the jurisdiction of the State of Florida or the State of New York that you are referencing as having jurisdiction over the matter.

I just recently read through the Jurisdictionary writings on Evidence. It is listed in the GTEN library. Have you read it? Establishing evidence in alignment with these federal rules whether you are contracting privately or not will be a key to your success. Well, thanks for your interacting with me and offering your input.
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: same

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #190


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Let me take this to a totally different level.

The USA is so intrusive (NSA et al), and NYS so paranoid (since 911) that if you push this it will only get worse, here's how: let's say you took this to NYS court and you lost in the lower court but eventually won in the court of appeals for NYS, such that your case is now the law for the state.

Here's is what would happen with lightening speed, the NYS legislature would get together to create a law that would specifically define what specific ID is proper ID for notarization. All of a sudden NYS law will look a whole lot more like FL law regarding acceptable ID for notarization.

It would take massive amounts of time, energy, and money just to get it though the courts to a win, but in less than a year that interpretation of the law would be moot because the law would get changed.

The bottom line is you lose time, energy, money, and more of the rights you (and many others) currently have. Figure out a better way to achieve your goals.



Good luck.
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #191

"let's say you took this to NYS court and you lost in the lower court but eventually won in the court of appeals for NYS, such that your case is now the law for the state."

Would you pinpoint where it was expressed or implied that the contract is subject to the courts you mention?

It's not relevant or possible to entertain the above referenced quote as this process is not subject to the jurisdiction you are asserting. Are you aware of the difference between public and private? If not, the right to travel series is very comprehensive in covering rights vs privileges and benefits.

What I see here is you implying it's a privilege to have a notary officiate for me - implying that my rights are subject to the courts and the corporate State of New York. This inference is not accurate...it is, erroneous. I am exercising rights - I do not accept privileges. I do not accept benefits.

If you are familiar with commercial law you may recognize what it means that the notary and her principal is/are in default and have acquiesced to the facts established. If you are not familiar, it will make no sense to you at all. Peace and good luck to you too! ;)
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 week ago by All Rights Reserved. Reason: same

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #228


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Hey Siobhan, so I've been researching your issue and everyone I talk to is asking what are you trying to get recognized in the public by the notary. I understand you may not want to reveal private issues but there seems to be other methods to get your process recognized.

A big issue seems to be getting public entities to see private documents. Can the public see the private? Even if they want to. Of course being part of ICR you know there's more than one way to get a private document recorded.

If the issue is getting the documents presented you may want to consult International Presentment Services (IPS). They can give information on getting documents recognized from private or public. An Update to the notary presentments that used to be available.

Just a thought :^)
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #230


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"Can the public see the private?"

I answer that in multiple ways:

1) yes, the public can see private, the public sees and acknowledges private many times, in fact it allows different private players to know what is public from what is private.

2) yes, representatives of the public ie: Notary are able to see private yet and keep it private as well.

3) for practical purposes if you want private 'real property' (house, land) to remain private you better make that publicly known or else you are in for a wealth of trouble, like from those who are all too willing to publicly proclaim your private property is their private property

4) Moreover, the extent that your property is private in any country is the extent that country can protect said right -- think in terms of 'weakest link + spoils of war' yada yada. Your private isn't worth spit if your private public (your country is private aka sovereign to other countries) can't protect itself.
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #231

"What are you trying to get recognized in the public by the notary"

Hey ncognito,

I'm not too clear on this question...

There is no trying to get anything "recognized by the public".

All government is created by man. Living men and women. Government exists to protect the property, the rights of living men and women only.

Notary's are charged w officiating when presented with satisfactory evidence and a request for officiating. Refusal or failure to officiate is an omission - a failure to uphold a duty they are charged with.

When one studies evidence, satisfactory evidence is not defined as public identification. It is evidence that is credible, believable. What gives credibility to something? What makes something genuine, authentic etc...

Oaths, affirmations give credibility. Testimony.

The ID presented to her has such features - it is in fact self-authenticating. (See definition of self authenticating). The ID alone and with family bible both qualify as admissible evidence. And not the mere satisfactory evidence a notary needs to officiate, this evidence is superior. Original evidence, self authenticating. No one has stated a verifiable claim to the contrary and pursuant to my own verification, no one will be able to make a verifiable claim to the contrary.

She has no verfiable cause, no good cause for failing to officiate, and has not provided any when required to do so...and so she is liable for the unlawful failure. What she has provided are false and fraudulent statements/representations as her reasons for failing to officiate and thus depriving me of a right (she is a public servant - the role of public servant exists only to uphold and protect my property, my rights) unjustly - - - without lawful and verifiable cause.

So, there is no trying to anything. It's a matter of rights, duties and what is credible evidence...

Ignorance is no excuse when the law is readily available for anyone to study. So, hope that helps.

And thanks for the info I'll check it out sounds like a good resource.

In my experience one can make a private contract or any proprietary information public in the same ways people have been giving public notice for anything else I.e. Publishing in a newspaper, recording it w the county clerk, posting it in a courthouse, any form of news media t.v., radio etc. is public notice, some jurisdictions now consider information posted to the internet as public notice, also a UCC-1 is a form of public notice.

That's not the issue or an issue w regards to this private administrative process with the notary.

My contracting w her is private and public notice will be given only of the default and debtors obligations incurred. Notice of that will be given to the public after default.

Does that clarify better for you? Let me know I will attempt to clarify further if there is still any uncertainty.

Xo
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Last Edit: 4 years 1 month ago by All Rights Reserved.

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #232


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I don't believe we are speaking to the same subject. What I am speaking to is jurisdiction, not property or the like. Just because you put the word private in front of it doesn't necessarily mean it's private, needing an entity like a national government to "protect" that property proves the point. If you're paying property taxes, you can post all the signs you wish but it won't make it private. However property can be taken out of public jurisdiction, not be obligated to pay taxes and have the control to do with it what you please without interference from the public jurisdiction as long as you or your property do not interfere with them or their property. Exercise the minimum contacts rule. Of course you would no longer have the benefit of public amenities such as water, sewage, fire dept., police dept. access to public power grid etc.

A notary or any other official does not recognize foreign documents in ordinary course of business. You said yourself, being unfamiliar with it and unable to comfortably authenticate it, they are under no obligation to accept it. However if the documents follow the guidelines of the jurisdiction that entity works for there shouldn't be any reason they can't accept them. I'm not saying so much that their obligated but they shouldn't be held liable to verify the authenticity of the documents.
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #233


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Thanks Siobhan,

I only ask because you mentioned getting the seal authenticated and possibly apostles, which leads me to believe you may be presenting it at some time to a public entity. If keeping it in the private or invoking someone in their private capacity, what would be the importance of the seals that represent their public capacity? Why not a private entity like ICR or IRR to verify the validity of the documents offered?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the concept of the need for a notary or asking any public entity to verify that I signed my private documents. As I've said before I have no experience in this area so your bringing things to light that I have never thought about and I thank you for it.

As far as the process with the notary I fully support you flexing your muscles and exercising your rights. If an official causes you damage by refusing your rights or trying to coerce you to step into a jurisdiction you have no need to be in, then they should know about it. Not that I feel like "let's get em" or anything cause there's not really a them, it's just our reflection, our creation, it's just us. It's a good opportunity to help them to better understand their position and become more proficient at their job which in turn helps us out a lot more. Win-win.

No matter what the results it is a good exercise, thanks for sharing it and letting us be a part of this learning experience. :^)
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Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #234


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ncogneto_01 wrote:
What I am speaking to is jurisdiction, not property or the like. Just because you put the word private in front of it doesn't necessarily mean it's private, needing an entity like a national government to "protect" that property proves the point.


What one of your juvenile children call private property and the other juvenile child call private property is subject to your (the parent's) definition and arbitrary will -- that is the law of your household.

That micro-example can be extended further to the greatest macro level on earth -- international conficts. What one country calls private and another country call private in this world is subject to any higher stronger power or entity -- might is right.

So whatever you believe you call private is only as private as the enforcement powers aligned with your definition.

If your PRIVATE property by whatever definition is located in what I call the USA then it is subject to eminent domain laws in which a US govt may take if for compensation of their choice and give it to any other or keep it for no purpose at all as they deem fit. This rule of law applies to fed govt for sure, state govt for sure, and being tested in municipal govt right now.




ncogneto_01 wrote:
A notary or any other official does not recognize foreign documents in ordinary course of business. You said yourself, being unfamiliar with it and unable to comfortably authenticate it, they are under no obligation to accept it. However if the documents follow the guidelines of the jurisdiction that entity works for there shouldn't be any reason they can't accept them. I'm not saying so much that their obligated but they shouldn't be held liable to verify the authenticity of the documents.


I would like to know how you are defining the terms: "recognize", and "foreign documents" in the above context. If our definitions match, then notaries do at times recognize foreign documents in their ordinary course of business.

For example, if you define foreign as anything unfamiliar to them then just about every document that comes before them is 'foreign' until they get to know it by whatever way they do that.

if you define foreign as written in a language unfamiliar to the notary allbeit recognized by the state, then in some states that is the prerogative of the notary. For example if the notary is simply witnessing the signature then most notaries in most states shouldn't have an issue with that. If it's a sworn statement some may be a bit timid about it although it is the same level of responsibility.

In some states like Florida notaries are able to issue certified copies of document, they don't authenticate the document but authenticate that the copy is a true copy of the original. In FL it applies to anything not issued by a gov agency or proxy agent. So they can't do a certified copy of a passport, but they can do a certified copy of a waybill in a foreign language that was issued by a foreign corporation in a foreign country.


As for: "You said yourself, being unfamiliar with it and unable to comfortably authenticate it,"
in that context I was speaking about the ID and the notary's ability to know the person before them not the document presented by the person. The first duty of all US notaries is to KNOW your signer, the way you know your signer may differ from state to state, in FL it is prescribed only specific types of ID is acceptable. But for NY they essentially leave it to your judgement (no ID required). [again, it has been 13 years since I was a NY notary so that law may have changed]


ncogneto_01 wrote:
... However if the documents follow the guidelines of the jurisdiction that entity works for there shouldn't be any reason they can't accept them. I'm not saying so much that their obligated but they shouldn't be held liable to verify the authenticity of the documents.

I accept the underlined portion as true. The sentence that followed is tricky "shouldn't be held liable to verify the authenticity of the document". They are never responsible for the authenticity of documents presented to them, however they are expected to exercise reasonable care in carrying out their duty. For example just because the ID presented to them is true, and 100% valid, doesn't mean it is the ID for the person presenting it to you.

One time a woman presented me with ID that did not look like her, it was a complete make over from meth-head in the ID to beauty queen in person, I could not accept it. She was able to provide other ID that allowed me to believe it was her driver's license, however the other ID was not acceptable ID for the notarization, so I had to find other ways to believe driver's license was actually hers.

Now to bring both "documents" together the document and the id, in FL car title transfers can be officiated by notaries (think of it as a car closing), they don't authenticate the validity of the title itself however they do do a cursory examination of the document, but their main duty is to make sure that the two parties (buyer and seller) are known to the state (via notary) and that they willingly acknowledge their actions.

That was a weekend, many people had to travel to me in order to do the transaction, please note unlike NYC where notaries are on every corner in FL they are very very hard to find. So if the transaction didn't happen should might have lost a buyer for her car. You can see a suit coming out of that for me refusing to accept her valid ID. Depending on how she showed up looking in court she could easily win or lose the case.

Aso note, all fl notaries must be bonded, probably still not the case for NYS notaries.
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Last Edit: 4 years 3 months ago by Armis.

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #235

"I only ask because you mentioned getting the seal authenticated and possibly apostles, which leads me to believe you may be presenting it at some time to a public entity."

I don't mind further breaking things down in our conversation...it only helps me to express as articulately as I can.

Presenting what to a public entity...are you meaning the documents from the private administrative process with the notary who unlawfully failed to officiate or are you meaning something else?

Depending on what I am doing, depending on how I am doing it, I sometimes have a notary notarize and likewise sometimes I opt to have no notary and instead have witness attestations / affirmations instead. My main reason for the authentication and apostille on a document is so it meets the criteria, the qualifications, of a "self authenticating document" that is recognized internationally. MIC teaches about this in their seminars. It's just a very powerful tool to have in your toolbox, should you want it or need it, depending on what you are doing.

The United States considers self authenticating documents to "require no extrinsic evidence of authenticity in order to be admitted". So, notarized documents...it's not done with an intention to present it to the public as you say, but so that it has the same level of integrity the public requires should one need to produce evidence, or wants to produce evidence, to anyone, public or private.

Here is a definition of self authenticating documents:http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/self-authenticating_documents

"Self-Authenticating Documents
Under Rule 902(a) of the Federal Rules of Evidence, an exception exists for a select group of documents where no authentication is required in order for the document to be admissible as evidence. Self-authenticating documents in which authenticity is not a prerequisite to admissibility include: (i) acknowledged documents (documents that are notarized or sworn under oath); (ii) newspapers or magazines; (iii) trade inscriptions; (iv) commercial papers or documents; and (v) public records or official records with proper certification."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/self-authenticating_documents

In addition, anything I put my given and family name to is always executed without the United States, at New York. All I am concerned about is my own status, not the notary's. My status is expressed therefore intact regardless if there is a notary's notarization on my documents or witness attestations / affirmations only. Docs that I add a jurat for the notary read:

"A notary on this document does not constitute any adhesion, nor does it alter my status in any manner. The purpose for the notary is verification and identification only and not for entrance into any foreign jurisdiction."

So, there is full disclosure regarding status and jurisdiction on the documents themselves.

Keep in mind also that the office of Notary Public is under the common law...based on custom and precedent...they've no authority to offer advice, I.e. state I, or anyone, need a driver's license for them to officiate....not only do they not have that authority, in addition, advising of such activity after one expresses, as I did, that such advice, such suggestion, is enticement to slavery, is now a willful act of enticing me to slavery. Once one is noticed, it is willfull to make such a suggestion a second time. To offer for me to waive my right to lawfully travel and beg (apply means beg in legalese)for permission from a corporate entity foreign to myself and foreign to New York, to act for and be liable as a driver for hire, in order for her to officiate...This is a transgression on several levels. Very serious ones. Deprivation of a right under color of law without due process and/or verifiable cause, False and fraudulent statements, Enticement to slavery and peonage...there are more.

The point is not to 'get her' or make her an enemy...there is no animocity surrounding the situation, not for me anyway. This is merely checks and balances. Lawful process. A process determining rights and duties, and establishing facts and truth. When transgressions occur one must have remedy available.

Here is an interesting read put out by the "National Notary Association". It discusses failure to officiate, proper screening of ID and more http://www.nationalnotary.org/file%20library/nna/reference-library/notary_code.pdf

There is a lot of interesting material on notaries public, the ancient origins of the office...distinctions between notaries under a common law system vs. civil law notaries..
check this link for more on that http://cdn.nationalnotary.org/bulletin/bulletin_articles/WorldofDifference.pdf
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Last Edit: 4 years 3 months ago by All Rights Reserved.

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #237


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Armis,

Thank you for your response, you are further helping me to prove the point. Saying its private doesn't make it private. Especially when it comes to real property.

As to the identification documents, again I am speaking to jurisdiction. Foreign to the UNITED STATES corporation. The documents presented for attestation have nothing to do with it but the private documents used for identification. If a notary exercises reasonable care in making sure the identification matches the individual standing in front of her, she shouldn't be held liable if the identification documents turn out to be false, especially if the documents meet all the criteria needed for proper identification. It's not hard to get a fake I.D. The state identification card I carry is fake as hell and I use it everywhere. Who's going verify that that's not me? No-one yet.
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Last Edit: 4 years 3 months ago by ncogneto_01.

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #238


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I am speaking to the reason you went to the notary in the first place with your private documents.

I understand self authenticating but what kind of private documents would need to be authenticated by the public seals. If your identification documents are self authenticating but they refuse to see them because they're private, what good would another self authenticated private document be?

Sorry, still just a little unclear of why you would have to use a notary to authenticate documents that are recognized internationally if there private and not intended for the public. I don't mean to drag this out just trying to understand in case I come across this type of situation in the future.

Thanks for the links, I'll be sure to look into them.
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Last Edit: 4 years 3 months ago by ncogneto_01.

Notary Public Failure to Officiate - Do They Have a Duty to Officiate? 4 years 3 months ago #242

Ahh lol I just wrote a reply went to edit it and deleted it instead :/

In a nutshell - the failure to officiate does not diminish the integrity and authenticity of the self authenticating ID. It's all I have and all I present if I choose to present ID for something and suits my needs and my life very well at present. Generally I've productive and pleasant experiences with notaries.

Using a notary on your docs is entirely at your discretion and if it doesn't feel right or resonate with you then don't use them - stick to witnesses until you want or choose to do otherwise.

Some documents I may want a notary on or if I am having a witness/ presenter send something for me, I prefer they have a notary jurat on the affidavit. The witness will execute an affidavit of service, as well as affidavit of non response. These I like to have notarized for possible authentication and apostille should I want that in the immediate or down the road.

Others could be a Notice of Settlement Offer, Public Notice, Notice and Demand, Affidavit of Satifaction of Lien, Commercial Lien Affidavit, contract cancelation notice, any number of documents... It's really a matter of preference bc the notary's jurat on the documents do not alter status or jurisdiction of the proceedings or parties concerned so there is no downside in my view by using a notary - I don't see any proof that it diminishes the effect of the instruments in any way. That's just my experience.

As Pj says, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat. Different ways to achieve the same effect. What ways resonate with you are all that are important and if there is hesitancy or doubt about using a notary for your private instruments then don't use them ;)

Don't strain the brain with mental gymnastics over it bc you can use witnesses just the same.
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